Trump De-certifies CARB!

"Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition" (realasabass)
09/18/2019 at 12:32 • Filed to: None

I don’t think it will stand. Maybe soon we can start importing at 15 years.

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DISCUSSION (71)

HammerheadFistpunch > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 12:42

I have three opinions on this whole fight.

1. California should never have had this power.*

2. They do and there is no taking it back.

3. Automakers should just keep middle fingering trump and doing the right thing anyway.

*states rights, I know, but a single federal emissions standard is what we should have had all along. I realize that their pressures have done good things for forcing automakers to do better and moving the needle on emissions in meaningful ways however.

Tapas > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 12:42

This timeline sucks.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 12:44

If I were an automaker I'd keep my cars the same price just to add to the list of his lies

RiceRocketeer Extraordinaire > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 12:45

so when can I doing non-CARB legal mods?

asking for a friend, of course

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 12:48

#2 happened at a time when vehicle emissions made huge strides in improvement. This led to...

#2a, the fact that nobody cares to make 49-state cars anymore, literally blows Trump’s little temper tantrum into irrelevance. The car makers have already spent all the money making practically all US-market cars CARB compliant. They can’t magically get that money back even if CARB goes away, and then you have Europe and China which will continue to tighten emissions standards because unlike the ‘Murican right wing, they care about pollution.

RutRut > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 12:49

Even as a small federal government fan I agree with opinion 1, this is too close to interstate commerce to have fractured regulations. It would super interesting to see how this plays out and if there are any crossovers to the gun control discussions.

facw > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 13:05

I wouldn’t hold out for imports. The 25 year rule isn’t really about emissions, it’s about helping big business maintain market segmentation.

Mercedes Streeter > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
09/18/2019 at 13:06

I’d ever so slightly increase my prices just as a middle finger. lol

Grindintosecond > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 13:08

I will be interested to hear discussions at work about states rights + pro trump supporting vs. states rights taken away by who they support and the mental short-circuit resulting. How will they spin this for their own satisfaction. Cant get good credit unless you already have credit.....wait...

But, he does this to a state he will not win. Notice how he did this right around his visit to the state to visit the supporters he DOES have there? It’s an early campaign move to gain here and there. That’s all I’m seeing. He wouldn’t have done this if he had won the stat e before.

Ash78, voting early and often > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 13:11

Once again, Trump chooses a petty, partisan fight over an actual business decision (which is “give automakers an expectation of what they need to do, preferably one which aligns with their customers”)

You can’t just unwind CARB. Even if you wanted to, it needs to be phased and not all-at-once. Again, business.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 13:12

This is a case where states rights should trump, but I’ve always thought that emissions should be controlled at the federal level along with drivers licensing and vehicle registration . But that’s just my opinion.

If this is authorized then what is not on the table? Will the feds implement a nation wide sales tax? Will the feds take away other state specific environmental laws that are not convenient to industry? States like California and Oregon have laws on the books that superseded federal requirements for a thousand things, not just CARB.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 13:14

1. California was forced to do this in the 1970's because of terrible air quality. There are thousands of laws on the books that go above and beyond federal requirements in the state of California, this is really the feds being bullies and infringing on states rights as you said in the *.

HammerheadFistpunch > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
09/18/2019 at 13:16

What we should have had was a single emissions standard that would have covered all states from the get-go. It should have been clear that the problems in California weren’t going to stay there indefinitely. Short term thinking.

Party-vi > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 13:19

Good to see the head of the Republican Party is force B ig G overnment decisions onto States Rights. What in the fuck???

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 13:20

Get out, this just makes too much sense.

Spanfeller is a twat > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
09/18/2019 at 13:20

You could argue that california was regulating interstate trade; which is unconstitutional

Textured Soy Protein > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 13:20

California will immediately file suit claiming that Trump can’t revoke the waiver, and it’ll probably work its way up to the Supreme Court. While I don’t have much faith in the Supreme Court, Roberts is sorta kinda in the middle and Kavanaugh (barf ) is surprisingly closer to the middle than first believed.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Spanfeller is a twat
09/18/2019 at 13:21

Prop 65. You could say that about lots of laws on the book in California and other states.

For Sweden > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 13:25

This is weirdly antagonistic, yet the Yankees should use the same emissions standards for every state.

Spanfeller is a twat > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 13:26

Its harder to do the right thing when doing the wrong thing isn’t punished

HammerheadFistpunch > Mercedes Streeter
09/18/2019 at 13:27

make sure to note specifically that the prices increases are a result of trade wars and changes to federal policies. Which, as a bonus , will be true.

duurtlang > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
09/18/2019 at 13:29

Are his fans even susceptible to proof of his lies being actual lies? I thought everything was blamed on, well, others. No matter what.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 13:30

nwvermind

HammerheadFistpunch > Party-vi
09/18/2019 at 13:30

You mean the deeply religious adulterer/ gilded conservative is not in line with traditional republican values? This will surely rock his core to their foundations.

HammerheadFistpunch > Spanfeller is a twat
09/18/2019 at 13:32

and yet...they are doing just that. Sticking to a form of standards that are far stricter than they are required to comply with.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 13:33

1. Why not? There should be a federal standard, but if a state wants to go above and beyond that standard why should the federal government care as long as the federal standards are still being met?

The Clean Air Act specifically outlawing states setting stricter standards doesn’t make sense.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 13:35

They know Trump won’t be here for long and it will get strict again, so why change everything. Better to just keep making things better. Eventually everything will be electric anyway I would imagine.

Spanfeller is a twat > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
09/18/2019 at 13:36

Obviously the system is flawed, and much like Marijuana rights, these flaws give a sort-of-grey-area executive authority to the president that is visible through things like CARB.

HammerheadFistpunch > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
09/18/2019 at 13:38

I guess it would be as if California created their own currency . It wouldn’t matter if they also accepted US currency (per the law) because it would force Californians to either carry 2 currencies for out of state travel or force other states to accept Californias currency. Some things ought to be held to a single standard.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Textured Soy Protein
09/18/2019 at 13:38

I think Kavanaugh (double barf) realizes he can’t be an overt partisan hack because Trump won’t be in office forever.

HammerheadFistpunch > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/18/2019 at 13:40

I think thats the general thinking - EV’s are an easier market to work towards because its still relatively unregulated. Why go back? it makes little sense.

Spanfeller is a twat > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 13:40

Yes, but only three manufacturers promised CARB that they’d follow the standards. The rest didn’t say whether they would or they wouldn’t. This makes the playing field more uneven than it was under CARB, because at least with CARB standing manufacturers knew that to sell cars in a number of states they had to comply with the standard.

In the end, yes, a Federal standard would be better but by stripping CARB of their power without a similarly strict federal standard they’re basically poisoning people who live in cities.

HammerheadFistpunch > Spanfeller is a twat
09/18/2019 at 13:42

No manufacture is going to back to laxer standards, its just that 3 companies saw an opportunity to stand in solidarity for the sake of production certainty. The rest will follow suite whether they say so formally or not.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 13:46

I don’t think the currency analogy is quite the same level.

Assuming some things should be held to a single standard...where do you draw the line then?

I do think there should be a single standard, but I also think the federal government is overstepping on this issue. In my eyes the states rights issue overrides the single emissions standard issue.

On a side note, personally I wish there was a world wide standard for safety and emissions so I could go buy any vehicle from any country or manufacturer that I want to.

Sammyno55 > Mercedes Streeter
09/18/2019 at 13:47

Or do like Porsche and add cost for removing stuff.

Standard car comes with California emissions.

Add $375 to delete California emissions and save 4 lbs.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Spanfeller is a twat
09/18/2019 at 13:47

C urrently new cars in the US meet California tail pipe emissions , the only thing that may be different is evapo r ative recovery of fuel and some EGR stuff.

ttyymmnn > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/18/2019 at 13:47

Not while we have oilmen in government.

ranwhenparked > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 13:48

Considering that CARB only operates under a waiver from the EPA, which is an executive agency, legally, he really can revoke it. Whether he should or not is the debate to have, but, constitutionally, a president can revoke a waiver from one of his agencies. Now, if Congress had delegated the authority to CARB (which would probably have been the more appropriate method in the first place), he wouldnt be able to touch them.

MultiplaOrgasms > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 13:48

*maybe soon importing foreign cars of any kind will be banned .

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 13:48

Given CARB’s own cheating and lying to pass laws and tighten emissions, I have no issue with them going away.

Spanfeller is a twat > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 13:48

What makes you so sure that they will continue to follow a standard that won’ t exist and that won’ t enforceable?

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition
09/18/2019 at 13:49

Funny. What happened to states’ rights?

HammerheadFistpunch > Spanfeller is a twat
09/18/2019 at 13:54

Why would they? Production timelines are longer than presidential terms. Even if he does win another term plan are already in motion that outlive that term as well.

facw > For Sweden
09/18/2019 at 13:55

We should have a single unified standard. The Obama administration made a deal for one that CA could support. But being something Obama did, Trump had to back out of it.

Spanfeller is a twat > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
09/18/2019 at 13:55

EGR reduces NOX emissions... which are the dangerous ones to human health. ERF is also, at least here in Mexico City, a key contributor to pollution.So much so that gas stations without the systems (not in gas tanks, I know) can’t operate during environmental ordinances.

It’s also worth noting that if you open the hood of many american cars for export you will see that manufacturers explicitly don’t rate the cars to pass the CARB tests (I would know, my WK2 came with that sticker). Reverting to non compliance would be fast, and it would save manufacturers a lot of money, so they have a reason to do it.

For Sweden > facw
09/18/2019 at 13:56

If you like your admissions standard, you can keep your admissions standard

For Sweden > Party-vi
09/18/2019 at 13:57

I’m more scared to see the Democratic Party return to their “Attack Fort Sum ter to preserve States Rights” roots.

Spanfeller is a twat > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 14:01

Manufacturers already make non compliant vehicles and engines for export. I don’t think the burden of a possible return of the waiver is sufficient to stop manufacturers from taking advantage of the lack of regulation for the next 1-5 years.

HammerheadFistpunch > Spanfeller is a twat
09/18/2019 at 14:07

totally is. it would take 2 years minimum to bring a new model to market even if you already had one ready to go that was missing emissions compliance. they aren't going to take that risk.

Spanfeller is a twat > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
09/18/2019 at 14:07

The chances of Kavanaugh being impeached are growing.

Shift24 > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever
09/18/2019 at 14:10

13 states follow California, so 37 state car

Spanfeller is a twat > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 14:13

For the sake of the health of city dwellers, lets hope you’re right.

Spanfeller is a twat > Ash78, voting early and often
09/18/2019 at 14:14

Look at Trump ruthlessly undoing and disrespecting the legacy of the Great Ronald Reagan. He must be spinning in his grave.

Spanfeller is a twat > Sammyno55
09/18/2019 at 14:16

Add 1000 to remove US stupid lighting regulations?

Brian McKay > For Sweden
09/18/2019 at 14:18

university admissions?

MrSnrub > Party-vi
09/18/2019 at 14:22

The only consistency you should expect from the Republican Party is their will to power. And maybe racism

DipodomysDeserti > RutRut
09/18/2019 at 14:49

Funny how Republicans are all for state’s rights until they don’t like something a state is doing.

It has nothing to do with interstate commerce. I live in Arizona and don’t have to worry two shits about California’s emi ssion or gun laws.

Shift24 > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 14:52

I disagree on #1. I agree a federal universal s tandard is needed but states are the ones taking care of the roads and issuing licenses and registrations.

If the state has an inspection or an emission test for a car to be allowed on their roads then they should be able to set those restrictions.

He alth and safety minimum standards should be set by the government yes, but states should be able to allow or deny a car on their roads if they require a higher standard.

But if a state does that the government can then deny federal funding to hold the state hostage. So yay states rights...

So if this right is taken away its pretty much what ever that presidency wants and the states have to fall in line

DipodomysDeserti > Spanfeller is a twat
09/18/2019 at 14:52

No you couldn’t. I live in a state that borders California and am free to ignore CARB without repercussions.

RutRut > DipodomysDeserti
09/18/2019 at 14:54

Before I moved to CA I worked in emissions systems back in Michigan, having two different emissions codes for products sold nationally sucks. I think CARB has every right to choose how they enforce federal emissions laws (smog checks, EO for aftermarket, state ref, etc.) but we need to go to one standard for all manufacturers. Having 13 states running on CARB standards, and the rest on EPA I personally think is a poor strategy for the market.

Spanfeller is a twat > DipodomysDeserti
09/18/2019 at 14:59

But what if you’re one of gigantic corporations in Michigan that can’t possibly keep paying A mericans to build cars unless the environment is ignored?

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > duurtlang
09/18/2019 at 15:26

Unfortunately, no, but each additional l ie means we get to be that much more smug when he’s finally hoisted by his own retard.

TorqueToYield > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
09/18/2019 at 16:42

Price is less dependent on component costs than you would guess.

Party-vi > For Sweden
09/18/2019 at 17:10

I for one welcome the return of ironclads to the battlefield.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2019 at 18:53

Huh? No that would simply mean that people could choose to carry regular old US bucks all day long if they wanted to and they’d be fine in all 50 states.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Spanfeller is a twat
09/18/2019 at 19:29

Manufacturers would have to go through the EPA approval process to switch over to a new, non-CARB legal drivetrain. That takes time and money. Manufacturers aren’t going to change their US drivetrains unless when they go to produce the next generations of their cars they have enough evidence to know that the regulations aren’t going to tighten again during the life of that design.

Spanfeller is a twat > TheTurbochargedSquirrel
09/18/2019 at 20:10

These are not new drivetrains, just versions of drivetrains that are sold in less regulated states, the C-DMV website even has a section about it. My WK2 came with the 5.7 without the CARB certification, but it did come with the federal standards. Jeep still sells that car.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Spanfeller is a twat
09/18/2019 at 20:57

A car like your Jeep which already had a non-CARB configuration (likely because that 5.7L drivetrain dates back to 2003) could just stop making the CARB parts. Any car that doesn’t currently have a non-CARB version (a majority of cars since 17 states have been requiring CARB standards for all new cars for the last 10 years) can’t just strip the CARB parts off and keep selling it. If they modify the engine like that they need to re-certify with the EPA to show that they still meet the federal standards.

Spanfeller is a twat > TheTurbochargedSquirrel
09/18/2019 at 21:17

Evidently, CARB had such an impact that few new models can automatically take advantage of their disappearance. But it’s not only new cars. Without CARB non compliant used cars will find their way into lots in states with smog, and... wait...

Repealing CARB will negatively impact new car sales as a consequence...

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Spanfeller is a twat
09/18/2019 at 21:28

Except CARB certification is only required on new vehicle sales (or less than 7,500 miles in California). Even California lets you bring in a used 49 state car in if it passes smog (which most cars will) and the factory emissions systems are still in place.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
09/18/2019 at 21:59

registration, licensing and I would add inspections. I find it crazy that insurance companies, just run on aggregate data. Home insurance requires nearly always requires inspections.